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Half of young Dutch people reject homosexuality

fortuner
- 10271 posts
March 7, 2011 11:39:38 AM GMT

Half of young Dutch people reject homosexuality

Half of the young people in the province of North Holland reject homosexuality. On Sunday, LGBT rights organisation COC published on its website the resulted of a survey conducted by the North Holland health authorities among 10,000 students in secondary education.

The health authorities conducted their survey among students in the second and fourth grade of secondary education. They were asked to fill in a questionnaire via the internet. A similar survey was conducted in 2005. Half of those interviewed thought homosexuality was normal, 37 percent thought it was a ‘little strange’, 6 percent said it was ‘very strange’ and another six percent condemned homosexuality as being ‘wrong’.

The 2009 survey shows a slight increase in tolerance towards other life styles compared to 2005, when 56 percent of the young people rejected same-sex relationships.

Girls were generally more positive about homosexuality than boys. Just 39 percent of the girls rejected homosexuality compared to 61 percent of the boys. Young people of foreign descent were on average more negative about same-sex relationships compared to native Dutch children, 58 versus 49 percent. The survey showed that age and school type had no influence on attitudes regarding homosexuality.
http://www.rnw.nl/africa/bulletin/half-you...t-homosexuality
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I'm shocked... and this is more tolerance! I thought this country was better than this! Obviously not.
canuckywoman
- 7247 posts
March 7, 2011 12:07:16 PM GMT

wesleynl (Mar 7 2011, 12:39 PM) said: > original post
Half of young Dutch people reject homosexuality

Half of the young people in the province of North Holland reject homosexuality. On Sunday, LGBT rights organisation COC published on its website the resulted of a survey conducted by the North Holland health authorities among 10,000 students in secondary education.

The health authorities conducted their survey among students in the second and fourth grade of secondary education. They were asked to fill in a questionnaire via the internet. A similar survey was conducted in 2005. Half of those interviewed thought homosexuality was normal, 37 percent thought it was a ‘little strange’, 6 percent said it was ‘very strange’ and another six percent condemned homosexuality as being ‘wrong’.

The 2009 survey shows a slight increase in tolerance towards other life styles compared to 2005, when 56 percent of the young people rejected same-sex relationships.

Girls were generally more positive about homosexuality than boys. Just 39 percent of the girls rejected homosexuality compared to 61 percent of the boys. Young people of foreign descent were on average more negative about same-sex relationships compared to native Dutch children, 58 versus 49 percent. The survey showed that age and school type had no influence on attitudes regarding homosexuality.
http://www.rnw.nl/africa/bulletin/half-you...t-homosexuality
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I'm shocked... and this is more tolerance! I thought this country was better than this! Obviously not.

I wonder how many students were from those religious town outside Amsterdam?

And teenagers are uncomfortable with anything "different"...they're still dealing with their own mixed up feelings...and want to "fit in" more than anything.

I prefer to believe that their brains still aren't fully formed yet!
grendelsbayne
March 7, 2011 3:38:21 PM GMT

This seems like a pretty inflated headline to me. Only 12 percent answered 'very strange' or 'wrong'. Maybe the translation of the options isn't entirely good, but 'a little strange' is not necessarily people rejecting homosexuality, imo. This can just as easily be people who are just a little uncomfortable with the idea, but still believe homosexuals should have all the same rights as everyone else.
fortuner
- 10271 posts
March 7, 2011 5:22:09 PM GMT

canuckywoman (Mar 7 2011, 12:07 PM) said: > original post
I wonder how many students were from those religious town outside Amsterdam?

And teenagers are uncomfortable with anything "different"...they're still dealing with their own mixed up feelings...and want to "fit in" more than anything.

I prefer to believe that their brains still aren't fully formed yet!

Then sexuality in schools should be more talked about so that young people, who feel they might be "different", i.e. homosexual, can feel far more at ease with themselves and those around them instead of feeling like something is wrong with them.
There should also be absolute zero tolerance regarding any form of bullying and any kind of hatred of any minority group... we should be instilling this before their brains are fully formed, not after, when it could be too late.
canuckywoman
- 7247 posts
March 7, 2011 5:24:18 PM GMT

wesleynl (Mar 7 2011, 06:22 PM) said: > original post
Then sexuality in schools should be more talked about so that young people, who feel they might be "different", i.e. homosexual, can feel far more at ease with themselves and those around them instead of feeling like something is wrong with them.
There should also be absolute zero tolerance regarding any form of bullying and any kind of hatred of any minority group... we should be instilling this before their brains are fully formed, not after, when it could be too late.

Totally agree. I suspect that, especially in the more religious schools, this ain't happening.
fortuner
- 10271 posts
March 7, 2011 5:30:39 PM GMT

You can read the report here on the COC website:
http://www.coc.nl/dopage.pl?thema=any&...artikel_id=4067

Can also download the FULL report using the download link at the bottom. Quite an indepth report by the look of it.
fortuner
- 10271 posts
March 7, 2011 5:39:04 PM GMT

canuckywoman (Mar 7 2011, 05:24 PM) said: > original post
Totally agree. I suspect that, especially in the more religious schools, this ain't happening.

Yes, most definately... I suspect that the religious schools are probably the least tolerance of them all, which is kind of ironic really. In fact, to be honest, I don't think there should be any religious schools at all. I don't think young people should be indoctrinated into believing in fairy tales...
pepec
- 2120 posts
March 7, 2011 6:38:43 PM GMT

Religious schools are a remnant of the Schoolstrijd. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_struggle
For Christians this is a written in concrete right.
gretasmom
March 7, 2011 7:12:34 PM GMT

wesleynl (Mar 7 2011, 05:22 PM) said: > original post
Then sexuality in schools should be more talked about so that young people, who feel they might be "different", i.e. homosexual, can feel far more at ease with themselves and those around them instead of feeling like something is wrong with them.
There should also be absolute zero tolerance regarding any form of bullying and any kind of hatred of any minority group... we should be instilling this before their brains are fully formed, not after, when it could be too late.

This is definitely true, but they might be receiving mixed messages -- one from home and one from school. If you come from a family where your parents are homophobic, as a child and teenager, you will probably also be. And I'm not just talking about "young people of foreign descent". There are plenty of "native Dutch" who are homophobic.
stone
- 2517 posts
March 8, 2011 10:02:12 PM GMT

Those religious towns outside Amsterdam? CW, what on earth are you talking about? North Holland is massively dominated by one city: Amsterdam. Amsterdam is over 50% Muslim.

I appreciate your attempt to be politically correct. But, hey, a spade is a spade.

Your rush to blame this on non-existent Christian students is...a little odd.

If you're ever in the situation of watching a gang of hangjongeren beating up a couple of gay guys, keep saying to yourself, "it's the Christians...it's the Christians...it's the Christians".
haagseboy
- 177 posts
March 8, 2011 11:17:14 PM GMT

Amsterdam is over 50% muslim. Really?
osita
- 1839 posts
March 8, 2011 11:32:07 PM GMT

wesleynl (Mar 7 2011, 05:22 PM) said: > original post
Then sexuality in schools should be more talked about so that young people, who feel they might be "different", i.e. homosexual, can feel far more at ease with themselves and those around them instead of feeling like something is wrong with them.
There should also be absolute zero tolerance regarding any form of bullying and any kind of hatred of any minority group... we should be instilling this before their brains are fully formed, not after, when it could be too late.

No; you can't talk kids to death about 'any' subject being right or wrong... or it's indoctrination, rather than letting them develop their own ideas - and indoctrination is equally wrong, no matter who its done by.

CW is spot on, at that age (13/14 and 15/16 according to the survey?) you have to let them sort their own feelings out for themselves, in all aspects of their lives, with a little guidance, but ultimately, for themselves - it's how they grow up.

Read that survery again, ignore the glass-half-empty headline:

"Half of those interviewed thought homosexuality was normal, 37 percent thought it was a ‘little strange’, 6 percent said it was ‘very strange’ and another six percent condemned homosexuality as being ‘wrong’". 6% .. just 6% ... set it was outright wrong. That IS progress. It could be better, but it's not a backward step, or a regressive society.

Show me another country where the figures for that age group would be so amazingly accepting, 50% of teenagers considering homosexuality 'normal'? UK? USA? Anywhere east of Germany or south of Spain? Don't make me laugh. You really need to understand the mindset of this age group. Dictating that they MUST accept ... anything... just doesn't work.

Foster a teenager and find out
fortuner
- 10271 posts
March 9, 2011 2:02:12 AM GMT

osita (Mar 8 2011, 11:32 PM) said: > original post
No; you can't talk kids to death about 'any' subject being right or wrong... or it's indoctrination, rather than letting them develop their own ideas - and indoctrination is equally wrong, no matter who its done by.

Don't be silly, I'm not talking about indoctrinating/talking to death, I'm simply saying it should be talked about more openly, just as straight sex is (which of course many wont mind being indoctrinated/talked to death over), so that those that think they may be homosexual can feel more at ease with themselves and not feel like that they have to hide their feelings just to fit in and be accepted... it's a pity people can't experience it first hand from the other side, would make people think a bit more about how they treat others.
canuckywoman
- 7247 posts
March 9, 2011 9:36:44 AM GMT

stone (Mar 8 2011, 11:02 PM) said: > original post
Those religious towns outside Amsterdam? CW, what on earth are you talking about? North Holland is massively dominated by one city: Amsterdam. Amsterdam is over 50% Muslim.

"Massively dominated"? What map are you looking at?

If you ever bothered to leave that city, you would also notice that there are many smaller communities...many of which that are predominantly Christian.

Not dissimilar to your homeland...and last time I checked, it wasn't overwhelmingly populated by only Muslims either.

I'm not just blaming Christians...I just refuse to let them off the hook just because the Muslims are the scapegoat of the month. ALL religions are bigoted, period.

And I would like a source for your statistics.
fortuner
- 10271 posts
March 9, 2011 11:19:25 AM GMT

stone (Mar 8 2011, 10:02 PM) said: > original post
Those religious towns outside Amsterdam? CW, what on earth are you talking about? North Holland is massively dominated by one city: Amsterdam. Amsterdam is over 50% Muslim.

I appreciate your attempt to be politically correct. But, hey, a spade is a spade.

Your rush to blame this on non-existent Christian students is...a little odd.

If you're ever in the situation of watching a gang of hangjongeren beating up a couple of gay guys, keep saying to yourself, "it's the Christians...it's the Christians...it's the Christians".

According to the CBS, although a bit out of date now, it's 13%...
http://www.cbs.nl/en-GB/menu/themas/bevolk...004-1543-wm.htm
stone
- 2517 posts
March 9, 2011 11:54:31 PM GMT

Of course I was talking about the schools. Amsterdam's schools are more than 50% allochtoon. The poll was just looking at school-aged children, not the population in general. So was I.

I don't have time to find the link, but I'm pretty sure I'm right.

I'm not saying this is a bad thing. I'm just saying that it's odd to blame the 300 or so Christian high-school students in small villages in North Holland when there are so many allochtonen in Amsterdam included in the poll.

As far as I know there are no towns outside Amsterdam filled with Christian teenagers. Or even Christian towns in general. I suppose you're talking about places like Urk, but I don't know of any Urks in North Holland. Maybe a few. Not Volendam, surely.

And in any case, I'm going to backtrack on my original point. Even if you find homophobia in the allochtonen community it doesn't necessarily have to do with their religion. It's more of a cultural issue I think.

So I wasn't talking about "Muslims in Amsterdam" but "allochtonen in Amsterdam's schools". And my original point is valid. This explains the numbers.

CW, your constant comparison of Christians and Muslims is getting a little extreme, don't you think? Maybe this works in some places, but it doesn't really work in a highly secular country like Holland. I understand that you're burdened with an overdeveloped sense of Canadian political correctness, but you don't have to keep reminding people that other people are just as bad as the Muslims. It's a weak argument. It would do the allochtoon community more good if everyone just acknowledged what problems that community is having and assisting them.
mrfook
- 5148 posts
March 10, 2011 8:57:42 AM GMT

stone (Mar 9 2011, 11:54 PM) said: > original post
I don't have time to find the link, but I'm pretty sure I'm right.

I don't have the link but I'm pretty sure you're wrong.
fortuner
- 10271 posts
March 10, 2011 10:34:46 AM GMT

mrfook (Mar 10 2011, 08:57 AM) said: > original post
I don't have the link but I'm pretty sure you're wrong.

I don't have the link either but I'm pretty sure that you're both wrong!
canuckywoman
- 7247 posts
March 10, 2011 11:22:41 AM GMT

stone (Mar 10 2011, 12:54 AM) said: > original post
CW, your constant comparison of Christians and Muslims is getting a little extreme, don't you think? Maybe this works in some places, but it doesn't really work in a highly secular country like Holland. I understand that you're burdened with an overdeveloped sense of Canadian political correctness, but you don't have to keep reminding people that other people are just as bad as the Muslims. It's a weak argument. It would do the allochtoon community more good if everyone just acknowledged what problems that community is having and assisting them.

I'm not burdened. I acknowledge there are problems. But I don't scapegoat and I don't paint everyone with the same brush as you seem to like to do. As much as some Americans tempt me sometimes. But I won't stoop to that.
betsie
March 12, 2011 3:10:35 PM GMT

"Half of those interviewed thought homosexuality was normal, 37 percent thought it was a ‘little strange’, 6 percent said it was ‘very strange’ and another six percent condemned homosexuality as being ‘wrong’". 6% .. just 6% ... set it was outright wrong. That IS progress. It could be better, but it's not a backward step, or a regressive society.

Show me another country where the figures for that age group would be so amazingly accepting, 50% of teenagers considering homosexuality 'normal'? UK? USA? Anywhere east of Germany or south of Spain? Don't make me laugh. You really need to understand the mindset of this age group. Dictating that they MUST accept ... anything... just doesn't work.

6% said it was outright wrong. That isn't a bad result, though I would have expected more to find it normal.

"Normal" is an unfortunate choice of word though: kids are very conservative and only find things they can relate to from their own feelings and experiences normal.

My experience with schoolkids is that girls nearly all think it's acceptable, though a few who are fundamentalists (various religions, including Christians) think it's wrong. Boys too are tolerant though wary. I often challenged boys who announced that they hated gays to explain what they meant. Turned out in most cases that what they really hated was the idea of doing what gays do. I told them they need not fear, since nobody could force them to have homosexual sex. Good to clear up such matters if you get the chance.

Kids are struggling with their own emerging sexuality and it's natural for them to externalise their own anxieties by disapproving of others. Most grow out of it when they are older and more secure with their own sexual identities.
ThePurpleCow
- 1018 posts
April 3, 2011 11:48:38 AM BST

Of course I was talking about the schools. Amsterdam's schools are more than 50% allochtoon.

Total bollocks.

Predictably, Expatica's tired little army of Islamophobes want to portray this as an Islamic problem. But the fact remains that the Christian fundamentalist SGP party (you know, the homophobic, mysoginistic one that says "God did not intend for women to make important decisions") has the largest youth section of any political party in The Netherlands.
pepec
- 2120 posts
April 3, 2011 12:36:00 PM BST

SGP may be homophobic. But they are also harmless. They won't raise a hand against anyone.
ThePurpleCow
- 1018 posts
April 3, 2011 5:05:08 PM BST

SGP may be homophobic. But they are also harmless. They won't raise a hand against anyone.

Even if that were true (and that's debatable at best) it's completely irrelevant. This thread is about young Dutch people's attitude to homosexuality.
pepec
- 2120 posts
April 3, 2011 5:23:44 PM BST

You are right. It is irrelevant.

the_purplecow (Apr 3 2011, 10:48 AM) said: > original post
has the largest youth section of any political party in The Netherlands.

12.000 members, including the non-paying ones. An irrelevant number when it comes to Dutch youth.
siduri_again
- 8 posts
December 1, 2011 12:28:24 AM GMT

"Amsterdam's schools are more than 50% allochtoon. "

I've worked in several schools in Amsterdam, in different parts of the town. Unless it has drastically changed within the last five years, this is not true.
There is a serious problem with segregation though.
But be careful, a school is already classified as 'zwart' if the difference between natives and imigrants is 20%. And segregation is worst amongst established (posh) 'gymnasia' and christian oriented schools in the bible belt - cause they don't accept imigrants.