Open mike: Bermuda and the Caribbean

Another chance to talk about a topic of your choice.

First comment sets the subject for debate. If you ask a question, be sure to provide your own thoughts too, even if it's in a subsequent comment.

» Tiger Bay says: "The PLP public position is that Bermuda will be an associate member of Caricom and no more. However, leading lights in the PLP indicate otherwise.

First, Dame Lois goes on the record saying that Bermuda should drop the Privy Council for the Carribean Court of Justice.

Then Dr. Ewart says last week at a Caribbean conference that "I think there is a role for Bermuda in the [Caribbean] Single Market and Economy but it is yet to be figured out."

What do you think of Dr. Brown's CSME comment? What do you think about the PLP leadership's habit of unveiling potentially unpopular policy statements OVERSEAS before any consultation with the Bermuda public?"

Comments

[Onion on 24.11.05 at 09:05]

BBW, for the record I do not believe Bermuda needs to become a full fledged member of Caricom. We do not need it at this point in our history. Having some form of membership , such as Associate Membership, is useful and we should maintain this. We must never burn our bridges. As Guilden says we should never turn up our noses to our cousins to the south as one day we may have to turn to them for help. I find that we in Bermuda tend to put a lot of faith and trust in our "motherland" England. Just as easily as they granted us UK passports they can take them away - and not just because we decide to become independent. We are totally at their mercy in terms of economic and military support. However, most of the assistance they have given us, "motherland" or not, has always come with a heavy price tag.

We don't produce anything here - certainly not enough food to feed ourselves. If some calamity were to come upon us forcing IB to leave this place we might find ourselves in a position where we are begging our cousins to the south to open up trade routes with us, provide us with financial assistance, educational opportunities, etc. Our attitude towards them must be checked. It is very important today that we forge alliances so that our backside are covered from every angle. Blind faith in the UK or the EU to bail us out of any crisis could be to our detriment.

[Tiger Bay on 24.11.05 at 09:07]

"However, most of the assistance they have given us, "motherland" or not, has always come with a heavy price tag."

Really. How so?

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 24.11.05 at 09:21]

Tiger,

Remeber the riots of the 70's? Although the UK has responsibility for internal security when its troops came over we were given a bill for services.

[Onion on 24.11.05 at 09:24]

TB,

Let me clarify by saying that our affiliation with Britain has given us many benefits for free. Yes, many international businesses are attracted to our colonial stautus. Many tourists love our British charm. However when we have requested the services of the UK that you would expect from them in a time of need tax payers still must foot the bill. I am not criticising the UK for charging us for this, but I do believe that this tiny detail is often left out of these debates.

Eg. After the 70s riots the UK sent soldiers to Bermuda to assist. Tax payers had to foot the bill.

Eg.2. Taxpayers pay the salaries AND pension FOR LIFE of all governors that we have had. We also pay salaries of any British soldiers attached to our regiment.

Eg. 3. British government refuses to assist with the clean up of Morgans Point.

[ace on 24.11.05 at 09:25]

"We must never burn our bridges."

Except of course any bridge leading to the UK. That bridge is okay to be "falling down...falling down."

[Tiger Bay on 24.11.05 at 09:25]

And I think that's reasonable.

[Martin on 24.11.05 at 09:41]

It seems to excape many contributors when being critical of the UK for charging taxpayers for troops (et al), that Bermuda would have footed the bill in any event, had it been responsible for its internal security.

As for paying the Governors salary and pension, again Bermuda will do that in any event if the Governor is replaced by a Bermudian on Independence.

Worse still, costs associated with independence will be a permanent feature....costs associated with UK help are (in part) "one-off".

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 24.11.05 at 09:41]

BBW,

"Maybe its time to privatize the other fifty percent and establish strong school boards."

I fully agree with you. I think Bermuda is small enough to successfully take the public school system and run it as a Board of Education. Although the board will ultimately report to the people via the government, the system will largely run without direct government intervention.

Although I do not believe the government is totally to blame for the failings of the system because education still begins at home. Parents need to be intimately involved in the education of their children.

Privatising the system will remove the politicising of it and the more we can get out of the hands of politics and into the hands of the private sector the more efficient the process will be. Let's face it there is no such thing as an efficient government. Even for a small land mass like Bermuda the running of the country is no small task.

Maybe this board should revert the system back to its original state and use Cedarbridge as part of the Bermuda College. Maybe that can house a technical institute.

Smaller class are needed, somewhere around 15 students per teacher. Teachers play a vital role in developing the foundation of a society and as far as I am concerned, for what they do they are underpaid. Under the privitisation the cream of the crop of teachers should be employed and their income should be largely based on performance. Not simply rolling kids through the system but there should be minimum standards of achievement set.

Parents will have to be involved as they will share in the responsibility of ensuring the performance of their kids.

Bermuda's educational system should be reflective of the economic success that today is Bermuda. We keep hearing that Bermuda is the economic envy of the world, well, that should also be said of our educational system. We are fortunate in that we are talking about a small population of students, which should be very easily managed.

[Big Bad Wolf ^..^ on 24.11.05 at 09:47]

Onion I didnt say you did and if you read my earlier posts you would see that I support our associate status within Caricom.The more world or regional groups we are a part of the better if they are relevant....the small island movement comes to mind. Here is a benefit that no one has even touched on re caricom...disaster management...every hurricane season there is the active role of being a part of a regional team that deals with hurricanes....It sharpens our team for when at the end of the ten year cycle, or sooner ...when we get hammered by a hurricane our disaster management team is focused and ready to deal withh the challenge.Re an economic down turn in Bermuda,people will dust off their second passports and move.It will be a different and less materially driven Bermuda and maybe our golf courses will be planted fields again.In the short term if our narrow economy fails there will be a mass exodus of people.An economy is like a lung it grows in size and diminishes.Always keep an anchor to windward!

[Onion on 24.11.05 at 09:52]

BBW, agreed.

[Big Bad Wolf ^..^ on 24.11.05 at 09:59]

Heah Guys re the troops after the riots....Bermuda was made to request the troops, after those American tourists died in the elevator at Southampton Princess from a fire set by a Bermudian arsonist.The then American Consul issued an ultimatium to the Bermuda Government-- bring in UK Troops or I will stop all US visitors reaching Bermuda.The UK government at the time asked to be payed back for sending the Irish Fusiliers.

[3rd Person on 24.11.05 at 10:17]

Tiger Bay said

"When a politician and deputy leader of the governing party goes on record saying that "I think there is a role for Bermuda in the [Caribbean] Single Market and Economy", reasonable people take him at his word."

Reasonable people don't dismiss statements to the contrary either. The PLP spoke out against Lois' remark saying that their official position is to retain the privy council. I think this is also reiterated in the BIC report. And having a role in the CSME does not necessarily mean joining the CSME. Much like Bermuda's role in global insurance. The Bermuda Government doesn't sell insurance, but we are important to it, are we not? Be honet - your question is loaded anti-independence rhetoric/propaganda.

[ace on 24.11.05 at 10:26]

Reasonable people tend to get suspicious when the official position is at odds with what the representatives of that position say publically.

[Onion on 24.11.05 at 10:30]

Martin says,

"It seems to excape many contributors when being critical of the UK for charging taxpayers for troops (et al), that Bermuda would have footed the bill in any event, had it been responsible for its internal security."

I said, "I am not criticising the UK for charging us for this, but I do believe that this tiny detail is often left out of these debates. "

Martin, the point being made is that contrary to what many on this island believe, the UK gives us no service for free simply because we are a colony. If we go independent, of course we will pay the salary of our own governor-general. Rightly so - they are Bermudian. Most Bermudians are not aware that we presently pay the governor's salary AND all the pensions of very living governor that has served as HE even though they have long gone back to UK. My point is that we always talk about the costs of going independent but rarely do we focus on the costs that we now bare. This is important because there are many who actually believe we get everything for free because we are a colony.

[Lost in Flatts on 24.11.05 at 10:52]

Warning, not on thread topic, but heavily discussed throughout, and it bugs me that people keep talking without the facts.

While I appreciate that some people may have emotional/familial ties to certain CARICOM countries, let's be realistic here. This is not a biased view, the fact is there are rich and poor everywhere, true. However, if you break down the average person (as in yes some are going to Oxford or U. WI or wherever, and some are starving to death, that's true anywhere, except maybe Luxembourg, but who really knows about them) then it's pretty clear where the better association is.

I compiled a brief selection, of the 'jewels' of each region (eg Barbados, UK) and those not quite as shing (Jamaica/Greece).

Couple Facts:
GDP Per Capita $
Bahamas 17,700
Jamaica 4,100
Barbados 16,400
Dom. Repub 6,300
UK 29,500
Greece 21,700
France 28,700
Germany 28,700
Bermuda 36,700

Unemployment
Bahamas 10%
Jamaica 15%
Barbados 11%
Dom. Repub 17%
UK 5%
Greece 10%
France 10%
Germany 9%
Bermuda 4%

[3rd Person on 24.11.05 at 10:57]

Ace said,

"Reasonable people tend to get suspicious when the official position is at odds with what the representatives of that position say publically."

But Lois isn't a part of Cabinet, and Brown's statement isn't at odds with the party position. If Tiger Bay wanted to be fair, he should have included the party position and drawn less of a conclusion from Brown's remark. The real point I'm making is that the question was obviously not designed to be insightful, it was meant to incite an anti-independence position. Shame.

[Big Bad Wolf ^..^ on 24.11.05 at 10:58]

Onion you are completely right Bermuda pays it's own way as a colony.The UK can be useful when seeking assistance on International matters like the satellite deal that is under discussion.We also have the benefit of the British diplomatic bags to help any Bermuda in trouble abroad.I'm sure that Government House helped out in some way to get Colin Lee back to Bermuda after the tragic events in Uganda.Look there are no absolutes in these discussions.One thing is for sure at the moment I would characterize the U.K. involvement in Bermuda as enlightened and constructive.The relationship has not always been in such good quarters but right now they are.Anyway we Bermudians are a resourceful people our history shows that so lets make sure we remain so for our future too!

[Two Cents on 24.11.05 at 11:40]

"AND all the pensions of very living governor that has served as HE even though they have long gone back to UK".

Onion is this correct? That seems like it would be an incredible amount of money being paid out just in "ex-govenors" pensions. Has this always been the case or is this more recently ?

I am in awe, as fast as the penion fund seems to be drying up here, we are still paying "ex-govenors" pensions. Any idea how much money this represents ???

[Bill Cook on 24.11.05 at 12:04]

The pension fund is losing money because employers are keeping the contributions made by the employees in many instances ie stealing that money plus not putting in their requirement as well.

I would suggest that the various trade unions step in and ensure that all back payments are brought current.

Regarding what the UK does for Bermuda factor in that the Government collects taxes to perform for its own subjects and collects no taxes from Bermudians so its unrealistic for us to expect free services paid for by the British taxpayer,ie sending in troops etc.

If an outside force attacked us I am not so sure of the outcome however.

Every country acts basically in its own interests, but it should be noted that Britain negotiated land in Bermuda for battleships from the US so possibly we are entitled to Quid Pro Quo ?

[Big Bad Wolf ^..^ on 24.11.05 at 12:31]

Bill its pretty much a given that if any hostile force attacked Bermuda the US would take them out.We are in the strategic sphere of the US and I do not think you have to worry too much about the course of action the US would take if a threat emerged from a Bermudian domestic source or an International attack.Grenada is a good guide for what the Americans will do in our region to protect their interests.

[Phillip Wells on 24.11.05 at 12:37]

Please keep this thread about the relationship between Bermuda and the Caribbean. This is not about Bermuda's relationship with the UK. Thanks.

[thereyougo on 24.11.05 at 13:26]

There have traditionally been many ways in which some whites living in Bermuda have been negative towards black Bermudians. One is the consistent attitude that anything Caribbean is inferior. These whites are always bringing up the crime in Jamaica, the barred windows in Bahamas after independence, the poverty and more.

This has been for many years one more way in which some whites put down anything black. While this may not have been the intention of the white posters here who wrote about the Caribbean in less than glowing terms it is might help to be aware of the history.

When you know that most whites are descended from England and most blacks are descended from the Caribbean it does not take a rocket scientist to understand why whites saying yet more bad stuff about the Caribbean might stir up some old stuff.

In fact when I read the heading of this thread I knew just what to expect.

I do not for one minute think that the long habit of putting down anything Caribbean as a way of putting down black people is a conscious act of racism for most people. But it is worth looking at.

[Tiger Bay on 24.11.05 at 13:44]

My point is not racial, social, or geographic. My point is that the stated aims of the CSME - which are very specific - are wholly inappropriate for Bermuda.

[SmokingGun on 24.11.05 at 14:13]

Lost in Flatts - you summed up our situation very well: Hi-Lo Bermuda.

The whole idea of joining Caricom is sort of like going out of one's way to get the clap.

[Onion on 24.11.05 at 14:26]

"AND all the pensions of very living governor that has served as HE even though they have long gone back to UK".

Onion is this correct? That seems like it would be an incredible amount of money being paid out just in "ex-govenors" pensions. Has this always been the case or is this more recently ?" posted by Two Cents.

Yes, as far as I know, this has always been the case.

[Simon on 24.11.05 at 14:28]

Theryougo, besides the fact that you have just upset a lot of white Bermudian's with surnames like De Silva and Terceira, I would question whether it is true to say black Bermudian's descend from the Caribbean - doesn't Africa come into the equation somewhere.

Feel free to question the arguments of people but please can you also explain to me the economic benefit of closer ties to CARICOM? Or is it just going to be Bermuda spending money or ties we don;t need and that we can't afford?

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 24.11.05 at 14:29]

Lost in Flatts,

Unfortunately the numbers you presented do not, in their isolation, give an accurate picture of the economy.

The more realistic numbers are the average salary earned versus the average cost of living. A large percentage of Bermudians cannot afford their own home, that is not the case in the Bahamas.

As far as unemployment, new opportunities are being created on nearly a daily basis in the Bahamas with the new investments. There are investments in the pipeline that will continue to add employment opportunities.

Further when talking about unemployment, as I mentioned above, with the existing standard of the education system and a 54% graduation rate, double digit unemployment for Bermuda is not too far around the corner.

You also have to remember that there are 35 inhabitited islands in the Bahamas, not one like Bermuda. These island stretch from 50 miles off the coast of South Florida all the way down to Cuba. Logistically it is difficult to create the same economic and employment opportunities on every island.

It is probably more feasible to compare Nassau in isolation with Bermuda as 200,000 plus of the total population (300,000 plus) live in Nassau. I would hazard to guess that the economic numbers of Nassau would be much more in-line with Bermuda.

The Bahamas has USD reserves of $730 million and an external debt of roughly $300 million (3rd qtr 2005) or $1,000 per capita. This is in comparison to some $80 million in USD reserves and $160 million in debt ($2,424 per capita).

Before, trying to make direct comparisons between Bermuda and the Bahamas it is important to understand and know both jurisdictions. Trying to compare Bermuda with a country you know very little about and/or have heard about is not a fair comparison.

[DoubleStandards on 24.11.05 at 14:57]

Has anyone pointed out, highlighted, displayed any advantages that BDA would receive with having full membership to CARICOM as of yet?

[ace on 24.11.05 at 15:09]

Guilden,

How much of your debt in Bahamas is owed to the IMF or World Bank?

I seem to recall you claimed that Bermuda would "benefit" from lower rates from these institutions post independence.

If the Bahamas has indeed borrowed heavily from the IMF or World Bank can you tell us the conditions they imposed on these borrowings?

[Big Bad Wolf ^..^ on 24.11.05 at 15:09]

I think 1500 souls murdered in Jamacia is of concern....hardly a put down more like an end to existence.The major reason that visas are now required by Jamacians travelling to Bermuda was because of the imported crime wave landing on our shores during the pre-visa era.I see a problem of crime and poverty in Jamacia not colour.

[Big Bad Wolf ^..^ on 24.11.05 at 15:15]

There you go again the views you speak of were widely held by black Bermudians too! They resented these jump ups as they called them taking their jobs and out performing them in productivity.Then to add insult to injury they would do it for less money than Bermudian labour.Please do not try to hide the truth behind a white fence as Black Bermudians were just as anti West Indian culture and had the same bias toward them as White Bermudians.

[Double Standards on 24.11.05 at 15:54]

Lets cite Glenn Blakeney on Gary Moreno for an example.

[Onion on 24.11.05 at 16:20]

Black Bermudians have been very prejudiced against West Indians over the years. This is a by-product of a colonial slave mentality. Black Bermudians were always taught by their white slave masters not to feel agrieved about their predicament because they were "better off" than their cousins to the south who worked on plantations. They were taught that because they worked more in the house, or on the ship then they were "better" or "superior" to the slaves in the Caribbean. The legacy of this brain-washing lingers today.

My frustration is that there are some who will deliberately play on this prejudice in debates by stirring up emotion about the Caribbean. The typical comment, usually made by those who know nothing about the caribbean is, "If we go independent we'll end up like Jamaica."

They used to say we'll end up like Bahamas. Now Bahamas is becoming too successful so they can't use that one anymore. A typical narrow-minded Bermudian (black and white) will not even sit down to question the link between Jamaica's independence and crime. They are sold hook, line and sinker.

The old woman in the newspaper who hadn't travelled until she was 90 said she never wanted to travel to the caribbean because she heard they were all poor. Bless her. But that type of thinking is not uncommon even amongst educated exposed young Bermudians.

The Caribbean has its fair share of poverty but this has come about for a variety of different reasons in different islands. Independence is just one factor. Whatever our position is on independence or joining Caricom let us not make blanket genaralisations about an entire region in an effort to get people to make a choice motivated by prejudice, as opposed to insightful thinking.

[Big Bad Wolf ^..^ on 24.11.05 at 16:32]

Onion your insight has relevance to the general argument but I think Bermudians that have a superior view of themselves presently make this mistake based on material wealth.I would gladly trade our wealth in exchange for the amazing literature that has been written by West Indian writers.Bermuda is a barren cultural wasteland when we compare ourselves to the creative artistic output of the West Indies.

[Tiger Bay on 24.11.05 at 16:45]

"Black Bermudians have been very prejudiced against West Indians over the years. This is a by-product of a colonial slave mentality."

Bullshit.

[Jake on 24.11.05 at 17:00]

Tiger,

I have no idea of your day to day experience with black Bermudians, but that is far from bull. I hope that you are able, through this forum, to learn more about the people you share the island with, because when you dismiss something that I have seen with my own two eyes, in as dismissive a manner as you do above, it truly makes me wonder just what we know about each other at all.

[Onion on 24.11.05 at 17:04]

BBW,

Not everyone in Bermuda is as open-minded as you. Unfortunately many Bermudians do not know about nor could care less about literature in thier own island, let alone the Caribbean. We are defintely a cultural wasteland, not because we don't have the culture but because we continue to gloss over it in favour of Bermuda Re. I see no reason why we cannot have both IB and some culture.

I do however believe that many Bermudians, particularly black Bermudians, have a 'special' prejudice for the Caribbean, based not just on material wealth. Wealthy educated West Indians have complained about prejudice in Bermuda in the same way as poor uneducated ones have. Mexico, China and India all have poverty but they are not looked down upon by most Bermudians. Sometimes that which is closest to you is that which you despise most. It is a form of self-hate and ignorance brought on by colonialism.

[Onion on 24.11.05 at 17:05]

Tiger Bay, perhaps you would like to elaborate on why this is Bull. I am saying this as a black man.

1. you are a black man living in ignorance.

2. you are a white man who cannnot speak for a black person's experience.

Which are you?

[Onion on 24.11.05 at 17:17]

Tiger Bay, before you respond in anger let me give you a simple scenario that many Bermudians have faced when they go overseas.

Taxi driver: "Oh so you are from Bermuda. Isn't that in the Caribbean?"

Old-time Black Bermudian "Hell no!! No no no we are up north, no we have nothing to do with them no no no. We're British colony."

Scenario 2.

Taxi driver, "Hey you look Indian. Are you from India?"

Old-time Black Bermudian, "Well, my great great grandfather they tell me was Indian and he married an English person as you can see with my finer features, and blah blah blah."

Tiger Bay, yes this is a fictional scenario, and obviously not all black people think like this, but any black person reading this can relate. You think I don't wish you were right? Colonialsom and self-hate have taken their toll on too many blacks. It is not as bad as in earlier days but it still lingers with some.

[Tiger Bay on 24.11.05 at 17:51]

My response was too minimal and too harsh. I understand your points - the same scenarios exist in the white population. My reponse is driven by the claims that any negative sentiment towards Caricom and CSME is racial. My points are economic and factual. Not everything can be blamed on "the white man" or "the black man" - personal responsibility has to come into play!

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 24.11.05 at 18:15]

Ace,

According to the lastest Central Bank of the Bahamas quarterly report the external debt is broken down as follows:

Commercial Banks - $0
Offshore Financial Insitutions - $0
Bilateral Int'l Financial Inst. - $0
International Financial Inst. - $65M
Private Capital Markets - $225M

There is no reference to the IMF or World Bank. Therefore, I would assume that at this time there are no borowings from them.

You ask abou the Bahamas borrowing heavily from these institutions but based on an external debt level of $290M, less than $1,000 per capita, I would not consider that heavy borrowing by any stretch of the imagination. Would you?

[Pitts Bay on 24.11.05 at 19:18]

Guilden

The IMF & World Bank lend through a large variety of different financing bodies, and International Financial Institutions could well include the IMF/World Bank.

In addition, much IMF/World Bank lending is done by guarantees of private sector lending, so this would not show up in the stats you provided.

Not saying it is so, but it may be necessary to look deeper.

[Bald Eagle on 24.11.05 at 19:58]

Tell me please ... why would we even start to consider how we can help the financial woes of the Caricom group, should that be the outcome of membership ( and pray tell me what is being a half-member?) when we have a public education system that is showing a failing grade, seniors facilities that are way below any acceptable standard ( Pembroke Nursing Home). Other than the arena of International Businesss we have no other successess to offer that were generated on home soil that would contribute to sustaining and enhancing the lives of the people of this country, including the basics of food and shelter. Get real people! charity begins at home. Its time for this government to show that it has a genuine interest in the people who voted them in by showing, not in words, but in achievements that it has the interests of all Bermudians at heart.

[ace on 24.11.05 at 20:20]

No Guilden, I wouldn't.

BUT the same Central Bank's web site puts Bahamian total debt at $2.3 Billion. So, I can see why you chose to use the external debt figure in your analysis.

At the end of this fiscal year, government debt as a percentage of GDP is projected to be 37.5 or $2.330 billion.

From here:

http://feeds.bahamasnews.net/?rid=59c50358f9381789&cat=ce785a18ec739f45&f=1

Things aren't as rosy as you make them out to be GG.

...and, if the IMF did indeed lend the Bahamas they will be getting quite uneasy as the 40% of GDP figure is where they start to put pressure for their own types of fiscal reform.

[Bald Eagle on 24.11.05 at 20:25]

Guilden, forgive me if this question has been asked of your before but, with your deep interest and opinions of events in Bermuda....why aren't you living here?

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 24.11.05 at 23:30]

Ace,

If you read the latest quarterly report you would see that the total national debt of the Bahamas is made up of external and internal debt. Internal debt is made up of Government Bonds, sound fixed income investments as the Government via the Central Bank has the ability to print money to pay down internal debt. The internal debt is not a drastic concern especially when you have an inflation rate that is below 3%. With such a low inflation rate and a local money supply (M1) of roughly $1.2B the government could realistically print enough local currency to pay-off the internal debt without experiencing a tremendous jump in the inflation rate.

However, the local banks currently have a cash surplus and paying off this debt would cause an even greater cash surplus within the local banking community. This may drive down rates but clearly demand for loans is no where near the supply of funds available for lending.

The internal debt is held by local private and public corporations, including the Central Bank and they are stakeholders within the economy.

There are still some exchange controls on the capital account here, which restrict foreign currency investment due to an investment tax and government securities offer a safe high yielding (based on saving deposit rates) investment instruments.

External debt is a much greater concern as your debt is due in a foreign currency to a foreign borrower. As I said, the Central Bank has in excess of $730M in USD reserves, more than twice the amount of external debt.

If I am not mistaken, Bermuda also has internal debt via a government bond that was issued in the late 1980s or early 1990s, I do not recall the year.

I was not trying to paint a rosy picture and I did not include internal debt as it is not a big issue economically. I was painting a real and valid picture. Actually, I think when a government can raise the debt it needs within the country it says quite a bit about the strength of the economy. Further, if need be the government could completely pay-off its debt obligations without causing a whole lot of economic change. However, just as most people use leverage to assist their cash flow so to do governments. Most mortgages go to very near the maturity date because leverage allows the homeowner to do other things with his cash.

A country's credit rating is a reflection of its ability to repay its external debt obligations.

One thing you will find is that when it comes to economics there aren't too many ways to stump me. I have a degree in fiance and economics and was taught by someone who is considered to be one of the best economic minds in Canada, he was also my host parent while I was in university. Also I was once a foreign exchange dealer so I had to have a grasp on monetary and fiscal policies in order to understand and try to predict currency fluctuations. So I understand and can debate the topic. Anytime you wish to do so let me know.

Blad Eagle,

I have explained this many times before, I am married to a Bahamian and after being in Bermuda for the first 5 years of marriage we decided to relocate to the Bahamas so that my wife could be closer to her family. I have been here now for nearly 9 years. One of us had to make the sacrifice.

But I will always be a Bermudian and I will always take an interest in my country. Just because I do no tlive in Bermuda does not mean I do not take an interest. But the reality is my family comes before my country.

[Big Bad Wolf ^..^ on 24.11.05 at 23:38]

Guilden I hope you can show me a good time when I finally get back down to the Bahamas again.What are the best outer islands to visit?

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 24.11.05 at 23:43]

BBW,

I be glad to. Send my an email and we can correspond in greater detail.

[ace on 25.11.05 at 08:34]

Nope..not going to debate economics with you as I don't have the indepth knowledge you seem to have and clearly I would be at a disadvantage.

I thought the debt levels you mentioned seemed very low as I have heard that the national debt in the Bahamas is of great concern to many locals there. A quick check on the actual levels revealed a 2 billion dollar discrepancy in what you stated (although you were clear that it was external debt)and what the Central Bank reported as total debt.

I'm a simple accountant...to me dept is debt whether it is internal or external. Eventually the 'piper' must be paid. Printing money to do so would appear to me to be a terrible way of going about it, but I will defer to your knowledge of the subject matter.

I would just say that the IMF does indeed seem concerned about the total debt levels as a percentage of GDP...why would they care if they were not a stakeholder?

An excellent quote regarding economists:

"An economist is someone with their head in a fire and their feet in a block of ice and who says that 'on balance' I feel just fine."

[Combat Banker on 25.11.05 at 08:41]

Ooooooooh, Ace ace ace... The joke continues with:

And the Accountant would wink and say "what temperature do you WANT it to be?"

;)